The Ironsong Tribe

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Q u o t e:

I like your assessment. From what the devs are saying, they are pretty comfortable with the talent layout for the most part. When the talent review is coming, I wish I could say, but when it does I don't think they have intentions of any kind of "massive revamp".

I am just concerned with players looking for some "class over-haul" that is likely not going to happen.

Your question is something any reasonable player should ask themselves and seriously consider. It's nice to see someone asking it directly and with a fairly thoughtful breakdown.

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I would, first off, like to understand how our class has not dipped into the point of needing some heavy rebuilding. Look at the forums, look at the general forums, look in random class forums. Many have repeatedly said mages are weak, easy to kill, a non threat unless you have the special trinket combo, and generally need a review.

However, here, you explicitly state that no massive revamp will be coming. If the majority of mage players are dissatisfied with their class, similiarly to how warlocks, hunters, warriors, paladins and druids were before each of their reviews, would this not also flag a signal to Blizzard that mages are starting to need said same overall as these classes have recieved? I ask this purely in the form that those classes have had their review, and the majority of them are now far stronger, more viable, more durable, and more powerful than they once were and players are far happier. Why can we not expect the same treatment to occur for our class?

More importantly, what is our role now? Are we just AoE masters that have many out of combat utilities that blizzard uses as a mean of balance? Are we a single target DPS based class? Are we a backline support/utility turned class? If Im to understand correctly we are still being listed role wise as a DPS base class - if so, May I ask why Blizzard is reluctant to give us some sort of low cost, 10 second cooldown spell that allows us to lower our threat, so we can be a damage class as designed? Dying or being forced to stop damage to lower our agro can not be the correct design for a damage class, at least one would hope .

Also, Why does Blizzard generally use our out of combat utilities as a means of balance? Water/Food/Portal are not worthwhile strengths to a class that is designed by nature to be a damage dealer. However whenever we ask for something, these are immediately cited as to reasons why we are balanced and must "give up" something in return for something. If I may inquire:

What did hunters give up to recieve mail armor, a free pet, a free agro dump ability and the power to outdamage a more frail class?

What did warriors give up to recieve plate armor, more health, a dominant tanking role and a switch role to do as much damage or more as us, the mage?

What did warlocks give up for DoTs, free pets, deathcoil changes?

When these classes were reviewed, they did not trade off anything as you have asked us to do. They were given these in addition to other tweaks and talents/class changes at no cost, to assist to class. Why do you not wish to also assist us in being able to do our intended role, and why must we continue to make a sacrifice when others do not?

The thing that bothers me most was when Tseric I believe mentioned that all classes were being brought up to the standard of the mage. That was an honest slap to the face for many mages. Many classes havent been "brought up" to our level, theyve been pushed above and beyond. And as much as Id like to be "brought up" to the new plateau, rather than sitting on the old one down below, I realize that it seems more meak an attempt to do so.

So, I ask:

What is our intended role in endgame instances?

Why does Blizzard continue to use OOC abilities as a means to not assist us?

Why does Blizzard state we are the standardization level when infact multiple classes sit above us now?

Why must we be the ones to trade something when others have had it handed to them?

Why are you reluctant to fix/assist us when all many mages want is a chance to be as competitive, for equal advancement, and to actually feel as though we are wanted for more than just our food and teleport services?

Many mages seem to be rerolling, posting in anger or spite, hateful towards you all, and it seems to stem all from the same thing. And that simply is that Blizzard seems reluctant or willing to bump us up in power and ability, either in fear of the past beta incarnation or some unbeknownst reason we are not seeing.

If anything, Some sort of communication of what we could generally expect, even a preview or mention that some things that are quite harsh for us being changed, would be a large step forward for many.
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Konjen

This was posted by a Mage in the mage forums, and many agreed to her. Infact, I agree with her has well, since I am trying to make a Mage named Gajitsin, and I don't want to start over, I think they should change buff the mages up just like that Mage said on the forums! Who agrees with me?



BTW: We should all take this to the suggestion forums

((I hope I'm not the only one that feels just the opposite of this. Most times that I've been grouped with a mage, I have generally been out-damaged by this mage. I play two other DPS classes (a Hunter and a Rogue) and rarely does my damage meter show that I'm out-DPSing a mage. As was mentioned in guildchat this evening, there seems to be a great "circular balance" (sorry, can't remember who said that), where every class seems to have a weakness against another class in PvP. Mages rock warriors, warriors rock Hunters, etc... Unfortunately, as we saw in EQ, there will always be envy and dissatisfaction. Mages, especially well-played mages, can be dominant in PvP as well as PvE... just like every other class. Ok, maybe not priests. *snicker*))

OOC- I hope your right. So... So.. many rumors are being passed that mages have been nerfed so badly in PvP. and Suck in Pvp. ...Again, I hope your right.

((Mages, in my opinion, need substantial help in PvP, and PvP only. Mages are awesome in instances still, but where they are struggling is in PvP. Mage damage is impressive, and assuming your spells aren't resisted you can still do a lot of damage...however, the fact is, mage spell damage isn't scaling nearly as well as melee/hunter damage nor does it scale enough when the other classes have far more HP than they did previously.

So that leaves mages with a few major issues when it comes to PvP that I've experienced. (but again, it all comes down to surviveability.)

1) Most classes can kill a mage faster than a mage can possibly kill them.

2) Healing classes can outheal mage damage.

3) Mages aren't the top DPS, yet die the easiest.

4) Mage spells take too long to cast and instant abilities are never enough to kill a target, have crippling timers, and leave you vulnerable due to their short range.

The problems I've found in PvP is that I can almost never find a good spot to just sit and cast in the background. Ultimate long-range damage dealer indeed. Sometimes I can (and I can really unleash heck) but Hunters having greater range than a mage plus sending their cats in with their 1.0 attack speed pretty much negate mage casting entirely. Add in the fact that mages are the most frail of all classes and you have a dead mage who can't do anything before dying.

Since I find myself almost always running around trying to avoid being cut down while in combat, that forces me to use my instant spells. The immediate downside of this is that almost all of my instant spells require me to be up close to my target - the worst place a mage can be. Fire Blast, Blast Wave, Cone of Cold, Imp. Arcane Explosion are all nifty spells but they don't do nearly enough damage and it's nothing a priest, druid or paladin can't heal over, a warlock can't cast over or absorb, a hunter can't keep shooting you over, a rogue (well, a rogue would have killed you by now) or a warrior can't Intercept and Hamstring and MS your face off over.

Most of my snare/root abilities (including polymorph) are completely negated by trinkets, potions, Blessing of Freedom, Cleanse, Remove Magic etc. This, again, doesn't leave me enough time to cast a 3 second long Fireball, so I'm back to running around and using instant spells.

Mana shield...pfft, not even worth it. Every class will easily outlast it or take it down extremely quickly, and leaving me at a loss of a ton of mana in the process.

I'm sorry this turned into a bit of a rant, but I started to play a mage specifically for PvP. I used to have a blast with it, but once I got into the level 60 gear rush my enjoyment waned considerably. I don't have any epics yet, and because of that I'm slapped around like a goldfish in a war with sharks. It's not always fun and I find my contribution to the team lacking when I spend the majority of my time in AB respawning, but I keep plugging away at it.))

I have seen mages kick a lot of...tail...in PvP. When I am getting hit with 1 to 2k Pyroblasts, please complain some more. I am lucky to get a 400-ish point Auto-shot crit on them. Granted, I'm not Marksmanship specced, and am often giving up a few levels to my target.

Not all of us hunters have 1.0 attack speed pets. Honestly, I wish the rare/unique animals weren't tamebale, but that's just me, and a separate issue.

A mage worth his/her salt can Frost Nova their target and circle them while doing their insta-casts, staying out of melee range and inside bow/gun minimum range. Of course, that's only for 1 on 1 PvP, which it rarely is.

I understand the bias that is inherent in anyone posting about their class in PvP; it's the "grass is greener" syndrome which most (if not all) people are prone to.

My personal problem class are rogues. I'm not going around asking for hunters to be improved or rogues to be nerfed. All classes have their counters and foils, and do better against some classes than others.

Lhuurssa Wrote:I have seen mages kick a lot of...tail...in PvP. When I am getting hit with 1 to 2k Pyroblasts, please complain some more. I am lucky to get a 400-ish point Auto-shot crit on them. Granted, I'm not Marksmanship specced, and am often giving up a few levels to my target.

Well you're right...which is why I didn't say that mages need help with DPS but with surviveability. And honestly, even getting a huge Pyroblast like that takes a lot (and I mean a LOT) of tradeoffs. Either using Presence of Mind, trying to stay still for 6 seconds, giving up Int and Stam for +damage, etc. Either way, I'm content enough with mage damage as it is, even if it doesn't scale, but what I'm mostly concerned about is not having the time to deal that damage because I'm too busy running around or too busy being 2-shot or I'm being hit with a hunter's auto-shoot and getting chewed on by the pet which doesn't leave me time to do anything (not to mention most of the time I'm not even in range to do anything) and dying before I can fight back. Having no surviveability is the key.

Quote:A mage worth his/her salt can Frost Nova their target and circle them while doing their insta-casts, staying out of melee range and inside bow/gun minimum range. Of course, that's only for 1 on 1 PvP, which it rarely is.

You're right. PvP these days is large group PvP, and a mage falters in that respect with so many classes (especially combined) able to nix a mage completely. Frost Nova also doesn't work nearly as well as so many people make it out to, especially when the classes mages have the hardest time againt (druids, priests, warlocks, hunters) can continue to fight regardless of being rooted or not, and classes like paladin, priests, and rogues can break out of it without the trinket (Cleanse, Vanish, Remove Magic.) Toss in the PvP trinket for warriors and diminishing returns for resistances, and the spell might as well not exist.

Anyway, I'd like to think I'm not falling into the "grass is greener" syndrome since I've played a multitude of classes and I've found significant lackings and issues with them all. I'm also certainly not saying that no class is godly or without it's counter. What I am saying is that, as a mage, my role in PvP has been diminishing more and more with every new epic item and other class improvement. All mages really want is the chance to deal damage without being killed so fast they hardly get a spell off, and the current game environement doesn't lend to that.