The Ironsong Tribe

In recent weeks I have noticed a trend that we seem to have a growing number of people online and available for Zul'Gurub, many of which unfortunately are not able to join because of the limit of 20 members to the raid. I would like to know how much of the tribe would be interested in forming a second raid on Monday nights, when possible. I have discussed this with a few other Tribemates and here are the concerns that a few have brought up.

Firstly, running 2 raids has some inherent balance issues, whereupon there are enough members of a class available for 1 raid, but not 2. This is something that truthfully plagues any raid, but I think it's something that we can work through. Chiefly this can be handled best with good communication by the parties running each raid, and having each raid set certain goals. As an example, if we have enough warlocks to do Edge of Madness in Raid 1 but not Raid 2 then the Raid Leaders would coordinate things so that the members of the raids that need it can be in Raid 1 where possible.

A second concern that has been brought up is actually not really a problem for our Monday night ZG raids, but it could be something that comes up in the future with the 25 man cap raids in the Burning Crusade, if we end up needing to run multiple raids for those instances as well. The problem basically occurs when you run multiple raids on one night and try to continue on a later night when the same availability of members may not be there and the raid lockout timer has not reset. Potentially what can happen is that because of some members being locked to raid 1 and others being locked to raid 2 there may not be enough people on subsequent nights for either raid to continue. This isn't an issue for raids that are only run once during the time frame before raid instances are reset, but it is something that will likely need to be taken into consideration in the future raid instances.

The last concern that others have brought up is whether or not we actually have enough members regularly available to field a second raid, and even want to. I think that we do, at least we have the numbers. We can possibly fill spaces with other guilds we have worked with in the past, such as Rotten Luck. In addition, it is very safe to say that a second raid can and will only happen when we have enough people for it. There's no way we can guarantee anything, much like how there's no way Kosath can guarantee that you'll get into the current ZG raid and not get waitlisted. This is a step towards avoiding things like that however. So the question becomes, do we have enough interest?

Above and beyond these things posted above I have a concern for a second raid, that being leadership of the raid. Myself, well, to be honest, I'm not a good raid leader. I'm a decent analyst of strategies, I read up and watch videos on raid strats, and have even successfully run a few raids in other guilds, but the actual running isn't really my forte; Main Tank, you betcha I'd absolutely love to help coordinate a second raid though, even if I am not qualified to truly run the raid. Both Umu and Tidefury have expressed interest in helping to run/coordinate a second ZG raid on Monday nights as well, and I think that between the three of us and the plentiful amount of experience that many of our members have with ZG we can really make this work.


Wow, that was all a bit long winded and more than I thought I would type up for this Lots of questions in there, lots of points of discussion, but what it all really boils down to is do we have enough interest in the Tribe to consider more seriously trying to run a second Zul'Gurub raid on Monday nights when possible???

I look forward to seeing what everyone has to say about this

Two things here:

Discussion of the raiding issues that will arise from Burning Crusade are not on-topic for this thread. This is something the officers are currently considering and we'll open it up for discussion when the time comes. I strongly suggest not worrying about it for a while as all the 25-man raids will be 70th level and reaching 70th is supposed to be comparable to levelling 1-60th. Resets do matter by the way for the Monday ZG raid on occasion as whenever IRL time and the raid timers permit we are trying to do Hakkar runs which we split into two days.

Second, making a second Ironsong raid is fine if there are numbers and interest. Complicating invites for the first very successful raid we have currently by asking the raid leadership to take the class needs / boss desires of a second raid into consideration is not very feasible. Raid organization is already "interesting" to say the least. Also, Ironsong has tended to reject or question including people of other guilds. Sometimes folks ask if they can invite a friend or so, but invariably if we regularly do something with non-Ironsong folks the officers start getting a lot of "Can't we do this on our own? / Can't we do this as Ironsong-only? / Who is Person X and why are they in our raid?" I don't really recommend it unless it's a minority of the raid and they are good friends of guild members, who understand the situation and our basic rules.

Just my two coppers.
Tae

I'd be all for this if we could get the class balance for a second raid. Being able to go to ZG weekly instead of every other week would be great.

Broken record, I know... but the time would have to be different for it to make a difference to me. Anything before 8pm or so server time I just can't make it to on a regular basis. Work and life, that whole thing...

I'm hoping this thread isn't dead already. I would really like to see some discussion about this. I know that there are more people out there that wanted someone to open a discussion about it, well, it's open...

Shillatae Wrote:Discussion of the raiding issues that will arise from Burning Crusade are not on-topic for this thread. This is something the officers are currently considering and we'll open it up for discussion when the time comes. I strongly suggest not worrying about it for a while as all the 25-man raids will be 70th level and reaching 70th is supposed to be comparable to levelling 1-60th.

In all honesty, the only reason I brought it up was because it was brought up to me by another player when discussing a second ZG raid. I don't consider it an issue really, but I like giving as much information about a subject as I can. The officers are looking to the future, great, thanks for the heads up Tae.

Shillatae Wrote:Resets do matter by the way for the Monday ZG raid on occasion as whenever IRL time and the raid timers permit we are trying to do Hakkar runs which we split into two days.

A second ZG raid forming up would really be an occasional thing as well (based primarily on attendance that night), so conflict should really be minimal.

Shillatae Wrote:Second, making a second Ironsong raid is fine if there are numbers and interest. Complicating invites for the first very successful raid we have currently by asking the raid leadership to take the class needs / boss desires of a second raid into consideration is not very feasible. Raid organization is already "interesting" to say the least.

I'm sorry Tae, but I really need to disagree with you here. I'm talking about something to help the tribe as a whole, not something that would be a detriment. Yes, the Monday ZG raid is successful, but why couldn't it still be successful with a second run going as well??? All it would take is a little communication, which to me doesn't seem like too much to ask.

Shillatae Wrote:Also, Ironsong has tended to reject or question including people of other guilds. Sometimes folks ask if they can invite a friend or so, but invariably if we regularly do something with non-Ironsong folks the officers start getting a lot of "Can't we do this on our own? / Can't we do this as Ironsong-only? / Who is Person X and why are they in our raid?" I don't really recommend it unless it's a minority of the raid and they are good friends of guild members, who understand the situation and our basic rules.

Duly noted. It should most definitely me a minority, and that is why I stressed before that a second ZG raid would be a "when possible" thing. If we don't have enough Ironsingers on for a second one forming then it shouldn't happen that night, but if we are only short a couple of people, it is possible to find decent players amongst the friends & guilds that we have worked with in the past successfully. I know that I have been in a couple of other guilds raids (all 20 man raids as it turns out) to help fill positions and remember on multiple occasions hearing how pleased they were to have Ironsingers raiding with them. It would seem a little haughty of us to not consider those same people if the situation happens to us. Yes, it means extra work making sure people understand raid rules and looting and such, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth it.

Kolem Wrote:Duly noted. It should most definitely me a minority, and that is why I stressed before that a second ZG raid would be a "when possible" thing. If we don't have enough Ironsingers on for a second one forming then it shouldn't happen that night, but if we are only short a couple of people, it is possible to find decent players amongst the friends & guilds that we have worked with in the past successfully. I know that I have been in a couple of other guilds raids (all 20 man raids as it turns out) to help fill positions and remember on multiple occasions hearing how pleased they were to have Ironsingers raiding with them. It would seem a little haughty of us to not consider those same people if the situation happens to us. Yes, it means extra work making sure people understand raid rules and looting and such, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth it.

We might be able to get some people from Blood Cult to come with us. Quite a few of us have raided with them in the past, and their own ZG's later in the week so it wouldn't be on the same timer cycle.

First of all I appreciate the constructive tone that this post exhibits.
We as officers do value and appreciate your input.

As a raid inviter myself, you have to consider, that being a Raid Leader is not a 'paying' job. Raid Leaders too play the game to have fun. Inviting for raids is a stressful experience. There is no way to make everyone happy, and inevitability some people will not be able to get invited to the raid. Many hard decisions have to be made along the lines of previously waitlisted raiders, class composition, healing/dps balance, and the right mix of players to achieve our goals. We do the best we can, and we ask the tribe to understand this.

Kosath did go out of his way this week to try to provide most of the key positions for a second Zul Gurub raid to happen. Unfortunately the second raid did not materialize.

Planning raids takes time, persistence and patience. Great raids are not built in a day.
There was a time where Ironsong struggled to fill a 15 man instance. We ran Molten Core over a month with 20-35 members coming each raid just clearing trash mobs, and not doing any bosses. It took us about 6 weeks to be able to field a 40 person raid for Molten Core.

Success breeds success. Ironsong has been blessed with having successful raids. And our membership continues to grow. Raiding waitlists is an example of a ‘growing pain.’

I would encourage folks who don’t give an invite to the initial Monday Zul Gurub raid to continue to try to form a second raid. If you can’t field 20 people go run the Spire, Stratholme, etc. To make the second Zul Gurub raid work you need to consistently demonstrate that two raids will occur every Monday nights. Use the tools on this forum to help make it happen, the Wayfarer’s Wrangling, the forum Calendar, ask an officer to announce it in the guild message of the day.

Also the Warlord’s offer still stands, anyone who is able to lead an event for 3 consecutive weeks, will be promoted to the rank of ‘Raider’ of Ironsong.

Kolem, I know we've already spoken.. but I agree with you. I know it may end up being difficult, but I don't see the harm in at least giving this a shot in the future. If and when a situation comes up again where a good 40 people wanted into ZG, we could at least try and see if would even work. It's no lie that the past few Mondays the numbers waiting outside ZG's doors were a bit staggering... And I believe several of us would be willing to at least give this a worthy attempt if and when the time comes. Am I wrong, Ironsong?

Definetly agree with all the statements that have been stated. All have their very valid points. I would definetly love to see ZG becoming a weekly thing instead of a once every other week run. But the reason I have for it is a bit skewed. I see raids as another way to the guild get together and meet people. Testing out their skills, seeing what the others are made of and above all else getting to know them.

While we have the MC raids that do the same thing and are much more common I have to admit I am a little intimidated by their concept. I mean, having 40 people packed into a zone leaves a little bit of the personal effects out of it. Or at least thats how I see it, I could be wrong cause well, I have never been and probably won't for a while. I just don't see myself being ready for it, I haven't learned all the little tricks yet. Another reason I like ZG so much good learning ground.


Well theres the 2 copper of a unknown grunt

I for one would be interested in holding a second ZG raid if there were adequate numbers and class balance.

That being said, I also think it might be fun to pool whoever we have remaining, and go in and just clear the trash mobs. Farm a little Reputation, Coins and Bijous would be fantastic for Krell. I am currently a bit more than halfway to Exalted, and would actually like to hit it someday.

As the Tribe continues to grow a bit more, it may make this a much more feasible option to run 2 ZG raids on Mondays every week.

Personally, I commend Kolem for looking into this. As our officers know, it can be quite difficult to set-up, run, and maintain a raid for the Tribe. I think if Kolem is willing to try this, we should all support it. Also, it seems there is a great interest in the ZG zone as a whole, and this could possibly help more of the Tribe to play there.


Krell

Krell Wrote:That being said, I also think it might be fun to pool whoever we have remaining, and go in and just clear the trash mobs. Farm a little Reputation, Coins and Bijous would be fantastic for Krell. I am currently a bit more than halfway to Exalted, and would actually like to hit it someday.

We can do Venoxis. He's practically a trash mob.

Not that I'm biased by desperately wanting that hauberk, or anything.

You are right, we could do Venoxis very easily.....but my point really was directed at 2 things.

1. What if we don't have a full 20 people? We could take 9 people in and effectively clear trash mobs.

2. Also, I was leaving the option open in case we planned to hit Hakkar a day or so later in the week. By not killing any bosses, we would not be "locked-out" of helping with Hakkar.

Just my 2 copper....not much.

Krell

Krell Wrote:2. Also, I was leaving the option open in case we planned to hit Hakkar a day or so later in the week. By not killing any bosses, we would not be "locked-out" of helping with Hakkar.

Hm, didn't think about that. That would only really be a problem with the ZG "long weekends", though, currently.

I would be more than happy to MT any second ZG runs with Krigaren that come up, just so long as I wouldn't be stuck as raid lead. I don't know ZG well enough to lead a group through, and I'd hate to have to subject the tribe to a "re-learning" of the place if I did so.

I would have also suggested this a long time ago if 1) I knew ZG a bit better, and 2) could be sure I could go every single week. With college starting back up, I've had almost no time to play. How Kosath manages to schedule every single raid and be there <i>every single time</i> while managing the every-day responsibilities of life is nothing short of a miracle, and if anyone deserves a vacation (as well as a pat on a back, a brand-new Kodo, a house in the Arathi Highlands, and a million gold) it's him.

And no, that's not brown-nosing. I'm serious. We have plenty of tanks in this tribe who are more than capable of taking some load off of him, and we've (myself included) failed to do so. Starting up a 2nd ZG run, or even letting him take a break and taking over the usual ZG run, would be a grand thing indeed.

I really like the idea of the 2nd Zul Gurub raid entering the instance with whomever that was not able to attend the initial raid.

Zuipol/Krell make a good point that you don't need a full raid to clear the trash mobs, which garner reputation, bijous and coins, and even possibly Venoxis.

Getting reputation with the Zanzaldar tribe is a slow, long grind, and killing trash mobs with however many people are willing as a second raid, is a great way to build up to fielding a full 20 man 2nd Zul Gurub raid. I would just recommend that when we start this committing to doing this every week, continuity/consistancy is the first step to establishing a successful raid.

This would be very similar to how Ironsong built up to getting a full Molten Core raid.