Possible change to guildchat

[Melikar]

Why not utilize guild chat as a medium where the most people can participate? I personally have not felt... totally comfortable participating in guildchat for a long time. As an IC medium, it is inconsistent. How can it generally be regarded as 'the guild hall' when at times people will throw in comments from elsewhere, or people will make IC remarks about achievements? Furthermore, many people in the guild have changed their playstyles. Not everyone is RPing as much as they may have done in the past. For these people, guildchat is essentially a channel they may as well have muted. The main guild channel should, once again, provide a communication medium for the -most- amount of members. I know change is difficult/unwanted for many at first, but usually it's for the best in the long run.

(This was initially posted to Mel, before other responses appeared)

Edit: Also, IronsongOOC could still remain for OOG contacts and friends. Either that or simply use IronsongLFG.

Okay, I'm sorry but...if you join a role-play guild, you are *expected* to role-play. Don't join us if you don't feel comfortable with RP for whatever reason. We have characters. We give those characters life. There are plenty of opportunities to expand upon your story and your character in guild simply by typing out a few words. Have you even really tried participating in GChat to see how Kretol would now be taken by others. Also, achievements are a Blizzard-initialized thing, we have no control over that. If it's so OOC to somebody, ignore them. Or just say "grats" in the OOC channel as is expected.

And honestly, if you're one of those types who "may as well have [guild] muted", why are you here? Every other guild out there offers that exact same communication. Ironsong will no longer be seen as an RP guild if this change goes through. The -most- amount of members should WANT role-play through the guild. That is why you apply, that is why you come here. For years, IST has been offering that experience to people Horde-side because they could find it nowhere else. And now everyone wants to take that away.

About the change, WoW is the exact same game now as it was six years ago. You get a character, you level them up through quests and dungeons and then you raid when you hit max level if you feel like it. There is no "omg-uber-change" about WoW. The Silver Hand community has changed because people come to an RP server when they *should* be going to a PvE one. I've always felt like IST has been a bastion of light among all the non-RP crap Silver Hand has been having for a long time. And now it's like, well, let's just put a global channel in that anyone can RP in. Any guild/group of people can do that. IST was different because we held true to our system of RP and what it should be.

The fact that so many people are agreeing with this really saddens me. It proves to me that people don't even know what IST is. If you've been here for over three years, you would know what we once had. And for people who haven't, they don't know what it was like and can't provide a decent argument against me on that one. So many great RPers and guild-members *left* because they felt this is where the guild was headed and they didn't want to see what they loved crumble into the cookie cutter that every other guild already is.

I will not go through with this. As an Iron-Singer, I value the RP a lot. I pay a lot of attention to lore and what people's characters should or shouldn't be like. I'm here to help people with any questions regarding such within the guild. And yes, I could also help a lot more people by RPing in a global channel. But in the guild, that actually means something. To people who have no idea it's like...they won't see me specifically as someone who defends lore and really helps build their character into something better.

Especially if the channel is hosted by a dedicated group of RPers (I am looking at you Ironsingers here), from a dedicated RP guild

We're not a "dedicated RP guild" if we can't even maintain IC guild chat. And don't expect me to stick around and host said channel. I'm not an Iron-singer anymore if IST won't even RP within itself. Like I said before, why not keep everything the way it is and just make IronsongRP a channel for out-of-guild people to RP in with us if they really don't want to leave their current guild?

[Noodlemortis]

I was actually considering this same thing independently not too long ago. It was based on the observation that a good 80 to 90% of guild chatter (OOC + /g) was occurring in the OOC channel. At the time, it just struck me as a little odd that the majority of guild talk was conducted in a custom channel. Though with the expansion coming out so soon, I would expect RP activity in /g to increase quite a bit.

Now having said that, I can see both pros and cons to both sides. It is sort of nice that I can have normal guild chat while on one of my non-RPing out-of-guild alts. On the other hand, I can understand wanting to include others outside of the guild to help promote RP horde-wide.

I will happy either way and will go along with whatever the consensus is, but the current policy is a long-standing guild tradition and maybe it would be good to wait a few weeks to see how we feel with Cat in full swing.

[Guest]

Like I said before, why not keep everything the way it is and just make IronsongRP a channel for out-of-guild people to RP in with us if they really don't want to leave their current guild?

Seconded.

It could also nicely clean up any issues of location when RPing. If your character is out in the world, in public, then you're RPing in IronsongRP. If your character is at home, in the privacy of the guild hall, then you're RPing in guild chat.

[Guest]

Meil,

I appreciate the opposing viewpoint, but I disagree with one of your basic suppositions.

The game *has* changed significantly with one major aspect. "Guild" is no longer a glorified chat room. Now it is a significant aspect of gaining items and titles.

This matters significantly when it comes to raiding. As of right now, *most* of the most active IST raiders raided in Wrath (or plan to raid in Cata) in a group with a significant non-IST percentage. It really was the best of both worlds, RP in /gu, and raid with random group of similarly focused guild and non-guild.

This basic aspect of the game changes come Cataclysm. Now, people must make the choice to raid with their team and gain the achievements (and rewards), or RP. Some of us already made that choice with one or more toons, I pulled Phoronid from IST to get into a raiding group, as did Senne, and Alissandre, for examples. Was it due to not wanting to RP? Not at all, I *love* the RP, lore, and character interactions with my 5 IST toons - but I had a choice to make, and made it with one character.

Within IST, some of our more active RPers cannot raid to the standards required by the content (due to lack of computer hardware, slow connection, lack of interest, or other - no negative judgment should be assumed.) They have the (correct) right to participate in guild raiding according to IST tradition and culture, but it again forces a choice for many between RP and raiding to gain the achievement/guild benefits.

The creation of an /IronsongRP channel adds those friends back into the RP mix, adds those who we RP with who never joined IST, and like I said before, makes us *more* then an insular RP guild, but an inclusive oasis for the server to join in RP.

(and I have seen this idea before: In Dark Age of Camelot, we had a guild and "alliance" system, where we had guild chat (which was mostly dead) and a multi-guild massive alliance chat, which was *incredibly* active all the time with RP. Folks could have family guilds, private guilds, and specific themed RP guilds, but still have a huge active RP life. I would *love* to see that on Silver Hand. We could have RP be more then indoors "in the guild hall" but have RP happening across the world. A simple [location] tag could set scenes, and make much more in depth RP.)

One other point: I honestly can see /gu being RP, non-RP, or "light" RP based on the various arguments. I just really want to see the public channel formed and encouraged

[Kretol]

Okay, I'm sorry but...if you join a role-play guild, you are *expected* to role-play. Don't join us if you don't feel comfortable with RP for whatever reason. We have characters. We give those characters life. There are plenty of opportunities to expand upon your story and your character in guild simply by typing out a few words. Have you even really tried participating in GChat to see how Kretol would now be taken by others. Also, achievements are a Blizzard-initialized thing, we have no control over that. If it's so OOC to somebody, ignore them. Or just say "grats" in the OOC channel as is expected.

And honestly, if you're one of those types who "may as well have [guild] muted", why are you here? Every other guild out there offers that exact same communication. Ironsong will no longer be seen as an RP guild if this change goes through. The -most- amount of members should WANT role-play through the guild. That is why you apply, that is why you come here. For years, IST has been offering that experience to people Horde-side because they could find it nowhere else. And now everyone wants to take that away.

Once again, though - what of those who have been with us for years on end, but whose playstyles have changed? Should they simply join another guild and we lose one of our tribemates because they prefer not to RP for the time? Or should we welcome them staying, but simply bar them from participating in guildchat? Both of these options seem very... exclusive. And in regards to being uncomfortable with guildchat RP... I know there are several people who departed Ironsong because of the quality of RP in guildchat. While this may be a separate topic, it's one of the reasons I had posted that big Roleplay Guide thread. Unfortunately, it did not see much light.
If such a change may infer we are no longer an RP guild to some people, then perhaps we should aim at being a more inclusive guild. How many people have friends that may be great players whom are stuck elsewhere because they happen to not RP? I've already mentioned this topic earlier, but I believe we as a guild should aim at being more inclusive; not only for RPers, but for great people as well.

About the change, WoW is the exact same game now as it was six years ago. You get a character, you level them up through quests and dungeons and then you raid when you hit max level if you feel like it. There is no "omg-uber-change" about WoW. The Silver Hand community has changed because people come to an RP server when they *should* be going to a PvE one. I've always felt like IST has been a bastion of light among all the non-RP crap Silver Hand has been having for a long time. And now it's like, well, let's just put a global channel in that anyone can RP in. Any guild/group of people can do that. IST was different because we held true to our system of RP and what it should be.

WoW is not the same exact game. While the methods of progression may be, the mechanics have changed a bit. I foresee us not getting as many applicants and awesome people as a direct result of the guild system. It's tearing apart smaller guilds, and forcing people that raid together to guild together. Are we going to let ourselves stay in the past, afraid of change, and likely miss out on great people because they don't like to RP so much? I know people in Donalzon's raid are intending to apply to the guild, from what I've heard, but I'm concerned about the lack of people we'll have to join our family if we cannot change to accommodate the aforementioned changes.

The fact that so many people are agreeing with this really saddens me. It proves to me that people don't even know what IST is. If you've been here for over three years, you would know what we once had. And for people who haven't, they don't know what it was like and can't provide a decent argument against me on that one. So many great RPers and guild-members *left* because they felt this is where the guild was headed and they didn't want to see what they loved crumble into the cookie cutter that every other guild already is.

Perhaps it actually shows that this change may be a good thing. I believe that being able to include -everyone- in guildchat is a worthy goal. Yes, it is unfortunate that RP may be seen as "being put on the backburner," but if we continue to have the same values for new people, and perhaps reduce recruitment to referrals only... well, I think the only downside would indeed be for those who are stringent on keeping guildchat as the RP-chat-room. Also, as I can respond to have been here for over three years, there's no sense in living in the past. We can always wish that things were like back then. However, I'll once again refer to peoples' playstyles changing, people leaving, people quitting... there's a lot of factors to contribute to things "not being the same." But just keep in mind that people have left because we haven't changed, as well.

I will not go through with this. As an Iron-Singer, I value the RP a lot. I pay a lot of attention to lore and what people's characters should or shouldn't be like. I'm here to help people with any questions regarding such within the guild. And yes, I could also help a lot more people by RPing in a global channel. But in the guild, that actually means something. To people who have no idea it's like...they won't see me specifically as someone who defends lore and really helps build their character into something better.

I am sorry if you feel that only helping guildmates makes it feel worthy. However, that is only wasting your talent, when it could be used to help shape up any other open-minded people on the server.

We're not a "dedicated RP guild" if we can't even maintain IC guild chat. And don't expect me to stick around and host said channel. I'm not an Iron-singer anymore if IST won't even RP within itself. Like I said before, why not keep everything the way it is and just make IronsongRP a channel for out-of-guild people to RP in with us if they really don't want to leave their current guild?

Why must being an RP guild and having IC guild chat be so... "locked together," so to speak? Why can we not RP with each other in a more public channel, and leave GC for the organization of events, planning of RP get-togethers (though the two prior can be done on the forums or using the calendar, admittedly), and simply be a venue where -everyone- can participate?


Edit: Curse you, Mir! I took too long with formulating all the above. Heh.

[Guest]

Edit: Curse you, Mir! I took too long with formulating all the above. Heh.

*hug*

[Guest]

Change the way the guild is run to accommodate raiders who don't RP so that they will keep raiding? Be more inclusive of people who don't RP to ease recruitment and retention of members? I'm sorry, but a lot of your arguments sound a whole hell of a lot like making concessions for non-RPers in an RP guild on an RP server.

Sure, we all have friends who don't RP who aren't in the guild. Hell, My wife isn't in the guild because she doesn't RP. But if we're going to claim to be an RP guild, then RP should come first and foremost. ironsongLFG, ironsongOOC, that creepy (you pervs!) adult channel, they're all OPTIONAL. You have to make an effort to join them. The only common avenue of communication we have that is automatically assigned to us is the guild chat. If that isn't a shining endorsement of the guild chat being representative of the ideals of the guild, if that doesn't make having guild chat be IC for an RP guild 'locked together' as you put it, then I don't know what does.

[Melikar]

I see the benefit of this, I really do. And I really do not want to leave IST. And I love to raid as much as the next guy, and I do want those achievements.

But at the same time, we had IC guild chat and managed to raid. And now you're trying to accommodate for raiders who want to join our guild so they can get guild achievements and don't want to RP? That's what PvE-based guilds do. RP guild take RPers. We are not an RP guild if we put raiders and OOC stuff first. We are then just a guild who has members who enjoy RP.

Ironsong will not be an RP guild if this change happens. Plain and simple. I'm willing to try it to see how things go, but I can't guarantee I'll stay if it remains so.

that creepy (you pervs!) adult channel

That channel no longer exists. >_>

[Guest]

Change the way the guild is run to accommodate raiders who don't RP so that they will keep raiding? Be more inclusive of people who don't RP to ease recruitment and retention of members? I'm sorry, but a lot of your arguments sound a whole hell of a lot like making concessions for non-RPers in an RP guild on an RP server.

Actually, I see it as bein *inclusive* of folks who do RP, on an RP server, that happen to not be in our guild for various reasons. It also acknowledges that many long term guild members have already told their RP stories in this "guild hall" medium over the last 6 years - and would like to have a reason to RP in a wider world setting.

I see this as Ironsong making a change to be a leader in the RP on the entire server, and not a locked RP club.

Look any day in guild and count the number of folks online - and then count the number you don't really know because they are silent on guild channels. I would like to see these quieter guild mates feel more comfortable talking, by being able to use the "default" /gu to get OOC RP advice, ask lore questions, plan events, and foster a comfortable group of friends. Then they can use their social RP skills in the multi-guild RP channel where folks in and out of IST can see them.

Ironsong will not be an RP guild if this change happens. Plain and simple.

The success of other RP guilds on other RP servers shows that this is not necessarily true, and likely the opposite of what will happen.

RP guilds on other servers have grown a powerful RP community by being public with their RP channels and using the /gu channel to encourage OOC teaching about community / share lore / give RP skills. It makes the guild more of an RP hub and less of an insular entity, as the "examples of how to do it" in a larger community of RPers.

This seems more to *encourage* RP in folks who are *not* in IST, as well as those who are in IST.

(edit: crammed two replies together for ease of reading)

[Guest]

[Actually, I see it as bein *inclusive* of folks who do RP, on an RP server, that happen to not be in our guild for various reasons. It also acknowledges that many long term guild members have already told their RP stories in this "guild hall" medium over the last 6 years - and would like to have a reason to RP in a wider world setting.

And if you read up, I am clearly in support of the idea of an RP channel open to the public.

Ironsong will not be an RP guild if this change happens. Plain and simple.

The success of other RP guilds on other RP servers shows that this is not necessarily true, and likely the opposite of what will happen.

RP guilds on other servers have grown a powerful RP community by being public with their RP channels and using the /gu channel to encourage OOC teaching about community / share lore / give RP skills. It makes the guild more of an RP hub and less of an insular entity, as the "examples of how to do it" in a larger community of RPers.

This seems more to *encourage* RP in folks who are *not* in IST, as well as those who are in IST.

And while it might indeed lead to a great and glorious RP community, my esteemed troll colleague is spot on about what it will mean for us as a guild. We will be a guild with members who enjoy RP and are part of the greater RP community. But we will not be an RP guild.

Edited because I continue to fail at quoting properly.

[Sreng]

My thoughts are, as always, a work in progress. Here's where I'm at with this right now:

We are a roleplay guild, we always have been. A critical examination of what that means is necessary. To me, the fact that we self-identify as a roleplay guild means the following:

-Our players have (or are expected to have) facility with the lore, and a backstory that reflects that.
-Our characters interact with the game world in a first-person narrative sort of style, with no bias from events that exist outside of the lore-based narrative.
-We have a duty to help other people experience the rich fantasy background of Azeroth in fun, satisfying ways.
-We have a responsibility to the Silver Hand community to work as stewards of the lore, protecting it, cultivating it, exploring it, and sharing it.

Throughout my years leading this guild, I have always believed in the importance of avoiding making anything mandatory. A guild is a mutual agreement to share in the consumption of a particular form of entertainment. Essentially, this is what we do for fun, and I have zero business telling you how to enjoy yourself. I do have a responsibility to use my judgment to lead guild policy in the direction that I believe will be best for all, and people vote with their feet. In my experience, what makes the most people happy is usually the best.

I feel that if we had a dedicated, opt-in RP channel, it could really strengthen the quality of the RP we share.

SURVIVING THE FUTURE:

Another way to look at this, and I believe this has been broached already, is from a standpoint of sheer survival. Blizzard has incentivized guild size and raid achievements, and we have already lost people because of it. It may be that we will continue to lose members in ones and twos, until we fade away. As Kosath once said, "if a guild isn't growing, it's dying". The denominator of any guild is its membership, and we need to give consideration to mass appeal. We survive on both our membership and our ideals, and I feel right now that this idea has the potential to satisfy both.

NAMING THE CHANNEL:

I would give some consideration to the name of the channel. Rather than "ironsongRP" (which I find somewhat marginalizing), I would suggest it simply be "Ironsong". That sends a clear message: this channel is who we are. If this channel is "Ironsong", then the guild "The Ironsong Tribe" is the support structure that enables this channel to thrive. In my opinion, the social structure of the guild will provide the enthusiasm and incentive that will keep people coming back, feeding the channel. The guild would be the root, but the channel would be the flower.

Just a few thoughts, still percolating. Good comments, folks, keep them coming.

[Guest]

I would suggest it simply be "Ironsong". That sends a clear message: this channel is who we are.

Great idea, and a perfect message.
/ironsong > /ironsongOOC

[Guest]

I'm sorry, I just can't see how the argument can be made that we're an RP guild and this change won't affect that when those arguments go side by side with ones emphasizing growth through the loosening of RP requirements.

If guild chat is going to be OOC now for the sake of those that don't want to RP, are we going to go ahead and scrap the IC applications? The moot requirements for new member inductees?

[Noodlemortis]

that creepy (you pervs!) adult channel

That channel no longer exists. >_>

Also, it was rather benign most of the time. Don't judge us!

p.s. /join RPWithFurries today for more fun and exciting adventures.

[Guest]

RP requirements.

We don't require anyone to RP over guild chat. The tribe does an IG (and moot) application to encourage RP and characterization, but we do not require anyone to RP in guild chat. As it is, 90% of Ironsong members rarely, if ever, do.

I think new members are discouraged by the lack of RP support within the game itself, and an OOC guild channel would add that support of lore and various RP skills. I could really see our RP leads (talesingers, et. al.) running lore quiz games over /gu, asking neat questions about lore to encourage conversation(So, do you think Sylvannas is evil or just intense?), and otherwise re-igniting passion over the game universe, followed by running an applicable scene over /ironsong and getting other players (oog) involved. In other words, an RP focused guild and community, beyond cookies and crafting RP in the guild hall.

I think that adding out of guild RP by a simple switch in channels, would both add new opportunities for RP, but would also encourage IST members to be the best character actors - as the proud channel host IST members and to grow RP on Silver Hand.